Transcript 0:00 Dude, ChatGPT low-key sucks. Sucks. [laughs] But we use it so much. We do, and it... 0:08 [sighs] I feel like we always end up talking about ChatGPT, but, um- Did you see yesterday, at the time of this recording, yesterday, uh, by the time you hear this it will be about two weeks removed. 0:20 Uh, but yesterday HubSpot released a native integration with OpenAI so that you can push whatever content you want from HubSpot into OpenAI to interact with OpenAI, with ChatGPT about your deals, about your pipeline, about the, 0:39 the data, and HubSpot is the first CRM, according to HubSpot, right? I mean, whatever. Who, who knows if this is true? But probably, right, it is the first CRM to do this, and I think it's a game changer. It is. 0:50 I think it'll be a new way of interacting with your, your pipeline in a way- Yeah... that I think will be much faster and much more exhaustive. I didn't see that yesterday. Um, I did see... Who's the guy? Travis. 1:03 He always supports us. What up, Trav? What up, Trav? You care if I call you Trav? Is that all right? Let's call him Trav. You better leap in message me, like, "Bro, you called me Trav." He's Trav now. 1:10 It doesn't matter if he cares. He's not here to defend himself. I saw him say HubSpot is working with, uh, OpenAI. Stay tuned. I saw that post today. So let me just read Dharmesh Shah, the CTO, co-founder of HubSpot. 1:22 It's a post from him. "Breaking news, HubSpot is the first CRM to be deeply connected with OpenAI's ChatGPT. I'm thrilled to be able to talk about this now. A big day in HubSpot history." 1:34 Talks about the connector, talks about how HubSpot will be the first to have a conversational chat interface, have a multi-agent network with low-code agent builders, an MCP server support in public beta, connectors inside ChatGPT. 1:48 I mean, it's, it's, it's actually pretty- Yeah... pretty wild. It, it's sick. And I use HubSpot. I use HubSpot all day, every day. 1:55 I'm, I'm quite inseparably built on HubSpot in my daily workflow, and so I'm, I'm excited to, to test it out personally. Yeah. Yeah, and you're, and you're married to ChatGPT. 2:05 It could tell you all the wrong things and you're like, "Yes, keep going." I know. "Keep going, ChatGPT." I'm like, "Please tell me how beautiful I am." But let's... Wait. I wanted to tell you why it sucks. 2:14 Dude, yesterday- Tell me why it sucks... well, two reasons. One, I gave it- I'm gonna, I'm gonna pour some more coffee while you talk. Yeah, yeah. 2:21 One is I gave it our transcription [laughs] and I said, "Analyze this transcriptual." Well, I have a, a pre-made prompt, and it's in one chat, and it always uses the same exact prompt. Closer, closer. 2:31 [laughs] And so, um, that actually looks good. You have a whole pot just sitting on your desk? Yeah, I brew a pot in the morning and I, uh, I- Just keep it on... consume the pot throughout the day. [laughs] Oh, man. 2:45 So anyways, I use the same prompts just so it gives me the same structure for every single YouTube description, podcast description, and I gave it the transcript, then I said, "Hey, can you now do it for this episode?" 2:55 And you're the one that no- I didn't notice it because we were already late on the recording. I usually push everything out, everyone, the day before it goes live. 3:03 Uh, I had to wake up early and get it done before the gym, so I was like, "Oh, crap. I gotta hurry up and push this out." Didn't read anything. 3:10 And it made every timestamp up, and it made up every single thing that we talked about. Not one little thing- Every topic... every topic. It's not even like, oh, the timestamps are wrong, dog. It's like, 3:19 what the- what did I send you? We didn't talk about anything that it gave me, and- It, it was so wrong... earlier that day, I gave it a video, a two-minute demo video. Are you sure you gave it the right transcript? 3:29 I'm wondering if you even gave it the right episode. Dude, I bet I could show you right now. Okay. I can show you right now is the right transcript. [laughs] Watch, watch me blame Troy for ChatGPT's mistake. 3:37 It, it- Troy's about to go off on a deep one right now [laughs] I know. I'm about to go crazy. I'm about to cr- go crazy. Um- Ugh... 3:42 but I gave it a two-minute video and I said, "Hey, can you just give me four bullet points of exactly what this video covers?" It was for demo. 3:48 And it gave me four bullet points of a completely separate company, and I know that because the four bullet points- Unbelievable... it gave me was for sales tech. I gave it an IT tech. 3:57 And so I was like, "This is not Boost Pipeline." So I said- Yeah... "Did you even watch the video?" And it was like, "Oh, no. Sorry. I just assumed it was a different company." [laughs] I was like, "W- you suck." 4:07 Like- No, that's insane. It's- That's insane. So I wonder- I, uh-... like, how much it does this and how much it's a facade. So, like- But it's happening more now. 4:18 I, my, the way I- It's happening so much more recently... yeah. The way I confirm what the output is and its accuracy is I, I try to find two or three other angles to verify. Come on. Let's go, a new water bottle. Owala. 4:34 I switched to Owala, everybody. Owala, ayy. From Stanley to Owala. Anyways, keep going. I know. I knew I would get you. Uh- Yeah. Always do... 4:40 especially with sources, I'm like, "Let me go to the source and just make sure it's, like, a reputable on its own and not as a connector to this GPT." But I don't know. 4:48 I think it's gonna get better, but people are gonna rely on it more, and so it's gonna get worse, and then it's gonna get better, and people are gonna rely on it more, and then it's gonna get worse. 4:55 And what I mean- Yeah... by it's gonna get worse is people will rely on it too much. The accuracy and reliance will be a constant balancing act where people always rely on it too much. They make mistakes. 5:06 The mistakes are costly. It's gonna just be a never-ending, or maybe not never-ending, but I think it's gonna be- Yeah... months and months of this for the foreseeable future. Yeah, which, uh, which that begs me to ask. 5:18 I, I was on TikTok yesterday, as I always am, and- Unacceptable... there was an AI-generated video of this guy working out, and the, the roof collapsed on him, and it was- [laughs]... flooding everywhere. 5:28 Have you seen this video? No. No. Okay. Viral video, and it's all AI, but it looks like... I mean, it hits the gym equipment behind him and splashes off of it. Like, it's really well done, 5:37 and a lot of the comments were like, "Oh, yeah, I'm for sure getting scammed, and I'm older." [laughs] And so I was like- Oh, 100%... and I was like, "Yeah, I probably will be too." 5:45 So I, I was thinking in my car all day yesterday, and, and no, I was not driving while watching this. But I was like, how... Like, do you think there will be some company out there, a big company that just... 5:57 or maybe it r- gets regulated. I don't know. I think they just, I think the government just said, "We're not gonna regulate AI at all," which is scary. Yeah. 6:03 But, like, at some point, something has to detect this is AI, this is not AI, and let- Yeah... people know. Do you think that'll happen? I think people are already trying to do it. 6:11 I mean, LinkedIn for a while rolled out this, like-This flag, the little tag that would sit on top of images that were either created by AI or used AI to do post-prod, and it said, like, AI has tampered with this or something. 6:24 I can't remember the exact verbiage. I'm reminded frequently of how, how little people understand who aren't dealing with this every single day. Yeah. 6:34 Great example is, uh, recently was at a church service and someone asked, "Hey, take out your phones. We're gonna do something together, kind of a, an exercise." 6:45 And it was a joke, but he was like, "And for those in the older crowd, I'll give you a little bit more time." But I, I thought to myself, I'm like, actually, 6:55 people who are just boomers, like actual boomers, I'm talking like 60, 60 plus. Like, you're a boomer. That's like your actual generation. Also, I know it's a slur. [laughs] But you're a boomer. 7:04 People are gonna get scammed out of their minds. I, I just don't think y- you weren't, you didn't grow up with how the evolution of technology is currently to be able to even keep up with it. 7:17 And I know there's gonna be exceptions. I mean, both of my parents are pretty tuned into this, and I'm, I'm, like, impressed, you know, just with their aptitude to know what's happening. But I'm like, my grandma? 7:30 Oh, dear God. I mean, my- She sucks [laughs] No. No, yeah, like I, I... No, my grandma doesn't suck. But like- I'm kidding. She's great... 7:36 her generation, her generation and, and, you know, people who are 70 and 80 and- Dude-... or even people in their 40s and 50s now who are just, like, deeply connected. Not. I mean, I, I have peers. Yeah. 7:47 I have friends in real life that just aren't using technology. I mean- Yeah... they're, they're just, you know, whatever they do for their day-to-day, their jobs and stuff, it's just not focused on technology. 7:58 They're not on screens like we are. And I- Yeah... I'm like, we are in a bubble in that sense. Yeah. 8:03 There are more people who have no idea what's going on than there are who are even remotely tuned into what is happening. Yeah. So I think people are gonna get scammed out of their minds. I think it's gonna be- Yeah... 8:13 a lot of evil that is, uh, you know, is hard to detect. Generated from this, yeah. Yeah, it's gonna be crazy. I just... I don't know. 8:20 I feel like there's gotta be something that's like, "By the way, there's a good chance that this is generated with AI," or something like, something's gotta happen. 8:27 I mean, uh, think about like- But even with Veo, Veo or Veo 3 that Google released recently. Yeah, yeah. It... Google? Microsoft? I think it was Google. I think it was Google. Yeah. 8:37 The videos they're already producing are- Unreal... in some cases indistinguishable. Dude. And we're just scratching the surface. 8:45 So- Did you see the one of the webinar conference where they're, like, going up to people and asking them questions and it was full AI? Yes. Dude. Full AI. 8:51 It literally looked like it was just a conference and then you were interviewing people. And you know what grinds my gears? 8:56 Is whenever someone has a post about like, "Look how great this is," and there's always that one guy- Oh, there's someone like, "This sucks. I can tell because-"... 9:03 like, "Oh, I can tell because, I can tell when you look at just the right angle, your eyes are a little bit glassy," and that detects the ro- Dude. I'm like, bro. Dude, relax. 9:10 99% of people- Like, that's not what they're saying. Yeah, 99% of people would be fooled by this. 9:15 Obviously, if you look at it with a magnifying glass, you can tell, but who's scrolling TikTok with a magnifying glass and pausing on every single slide and every single frame and saying, "Is this a human, or is it..." 9:26 I just think we're, we're actually, we're, we're on that train now. Yeah. And- Dude... 9:32 unless you put every piece of content on the internet through an AI model for the AI to tell you whether it's AI or not, humans absolutely will not be able to tell. 9:42 And then it begs the question of, well, if you put this through an AI model and ask it to tell you if it's AI, how do you know whether it is or not? How do you know whether to trust it? 9:50 [laughs] We just finished a conversation in this episode about how it's, the reliability to accuracy- Yeah... is always gonna be a moving target. Yeah. I mean- Dude... I think it's, it's gonna be a crazy future, man. 10:00 And I think we're living it now. No, we're living it right now. And [laughs] 10:04 those people that are like, "Yeah, if y- that, that person way in the background has six fingers and not five, if you look really closely," I, I hate that. I know. Zoom in like 600 times. It's somewhere. I know. 10:13 I hate that. I also hate when, dude, just like the people that always want to pick a problem. Like, if you make a post about... 10:20 I think once you made a post about just, like, being healthy and losing weight, and it had nothing to do with people that, you know, had medical issues where they could not lose weight. It just said- I know. 10:29 I'm like, "Oh, dude"... in general, there's an obesity problem in the US. And there wa- and there is. There's not- There is. It's statistical evidence. There is. And people too, blows my... And, and it could be anything. 10:38 I could make a post right now about, like, parenting, and then there's obviously people that'll be like, "Oh, if you do that, you're poisoning," but I'm like, "Why? Why? Why? Why?" 10:47 Every time, every single time I post about health, I mean, in the last year I lost 50 pounds, I got really healthy. You know, I, I've just, I've tried to take care of my body. 10:55 And every single time on every single platform I post about it, every single time, there is someone, always someone different, although it was the same person several times once, that's like- [laughs]... 11:07 "Yeah, but you know, not everything's about being skinny." I'm like, "What in my post just now?" Did I, did I say that? Yeah [laughs] Like, what? Yeah, like what? It's not even about that. Like, it's not even about that. 11:17 Like, it's where do I even start with responding to that? It's about being healthy. I know, like, dog. Yeah. Oh, good grief. Dude, anything. Anything. Anything. Same thing. 11:24 Once I, once I posted this thing about a cold email, and I was just like, "By the way, I don't have data 'cause I'm not tracking it, at how many replies I get, but this is working for me." 11:33 And some guy was like, "I would never trust anything if you don't have data put behind it." I was like, "You're- People are so offendable... you're, you're ridiculous. People are so offendable. 11:41 Also, the data that you read is probably super manipulated or fake when people are like, "I, I grew-" Every tool is going to automatically put themselves on a pedestal, yeah. Yeah. Ugh. 11:50 Anyways, dude, I, I know you have some conversations teed up for us today, and we're getting off on a rant here, but y'all suck. I mean, we could probably go on this rant for a while. 11:58 Yeah, let's call the people out, actually, that, that comment on your posts. Should we, should we start using names? Let's just go down the list of people. It was that guy. Let's just pull out every skeleton. 12:06 What's his name? What was his name? Andy maybe? An- Andy or Anthony or something. Yo, this isn't even about tech. Scott? I can't remember. I know. He's like, "Two Dads and Tech doesn't even talk about technology." 12:15 Let's just start name-dropping keywords about tech. AI, B2B SaaS, sales. All right, now it's about tech. We can talk whatever we want. Scott, if that's even your name. All right, cool. So how about that game last night? 12:25 [laughs] That game was good, man. No. Tell me about the future of work-And whether or not we're going to stay remote in tech or if there is a boom of back to some hybrid or in-office workplace. 12:40 There's a lot of polarizing conversation about this right now. Yeah, I love this topic. Um, there's a boom. What, in what direction? I don't think that we'll... 12:50 Going back or doing a hybrid approach, I don't think that, I mean, there can't be a boom in remote because everybody was just fully remote, right? 12:58 So I mean, there's a boom, as in there's a, a significant increase in companies that are at least requiring some sort of in-office work. Mm-hmm. And I, uh, I think we talked about this maybe on episode one or two. 13:10 A long time ago. I know, a long time ago, months and months, but I'm not against it. I'm not against it. Yeah. 13:16 I, I see all over LinkedIn, and LinkedIn is such a small world that we live in, but I mean, you gotta think outside of tech, but you're, you're talking about tech s- specifically. 13:23 Outside of tech, everyone's pretty much back in office. Honestly, I'm not. I mean, you can take it whichever direction you want. I, I mean, obviously tech is easier to talk about because that's where we both are. 13:32 But like I saw a post yesterday, uh, and I believe you know Nikki Lang. Yep. Great enterprise seller, has an awesome personal brand. She used to work at Deel, and her post was, "I've made the decision to leave Deel." 13:48 You can find this on LinkedIn. You can go see the rest of it. Amicable, she was just, she's moving on to different things that make more sense for her career. You think she's gonna go spy? 13:57 Yeah, maybe she's going to Rippling. No, that would be hilarious. Oh, kidding everyone. Um, but shout out Nikki Lang, congrats to you. 14:04 Super excited for what's next, but what I saw right after that was a post from Mike... I'm, I'm forgetting his name, from Deel. Brzezinski. No, no, no. Gallardo. What's his name from Deel? Gallardo. Oh, yeah, Gallardo. 14:18 Gallardo. [laughs] Isn't it Gallardo? No, I know there's two Ls, but it's Gallardo. I, I think it's- I think it's- Gottiyardo. I think it's Gottiyardo. Maybe it's Gottiyardo. 14:27 I think it's literally, I think it's literally a... Maybe not. We'll ask him in person sometime. But he, he's, he's, he's back in the grind, posting on LinkedIn a lot. 14:34 I think he took like two or three months off, but he said something about, "I'm hiring a bunch of AEs. We promote every single quarter." 14:41 And he kind of went through the whole, the ringer there, but he said, uh, I can't find the exact sentence, but he said, "Remote forever and always- Yeah... no matter what," or something. Yeah. Yeah. 14:52 Deel is one of those companies, I think Zapier does this as well, Beehiiv, uh, is one of those companies where- Yeah. 14:58 And let's stop right there to give a quick shout-out to our sponsor of today's episode, and that is Tango. I have been seeing Tango everywhere on LinkedIn. So I caved. It's like one of those things, right? 15:10 When you see something enough, you end up caving, and you decide to try it. I caved, I tried it, and honestly, I think what they're building is gonna change the way that CRM automation is done. 15:19 A lot of companies today do data entry and all that fun stuff. But what Tango is doing is they're automating every single thing that a sales rep does within Salesforce. 15:27 You just have to do it once, and it'll automate it from there on out. 15:30 So things like adding leads to Salesforce, progressing a deal from stage one to stage two, uh, closing a deal, creating your quote, all of these processes can now be automated if you just do it one time. 15:40 And so that's what they're doing for organizations. I think it's incredible. I think it's incredible. I used it for a HubSpot workflow. 15:46 I also used it for a step-by-step how-to guide on setting up HubSpot webhooks in demo. So many use cases. Literally anything that you want to automate in your CRM can pretty much be done through Tango. 15:57 So go check them out. It's tango.us. That's T-A-N-G-O dot U-S. Now let's get back to the episode. Like, there's just no chance we're doing an in-office. But I don't know, man. 16:09 I think I've, I've worked, I've co-worked even as a Beehiiv employee with other Beehiiv people in, in different times and places, and there's, there's something to it. I would never go back to an office. Neither would I. 16:20 Just so we're clear. Yeah. And this is, this is something I will just never change my opinion on. I've said before, I reserve the right to change my opinion. Never gonna change my opinion on this. Yeah. 16:29 [laughs] I will die before I go back to an office- Yeah... for a nine-to-five, but I can see the value. I can even see some of the culture fit for, for salespeople in, in, in general. That's what I was gonna say. 16:39 I mean, Wolf on Wall Street type of vibes, like you getting, getting hype up, and you got someone closing a seven-figure deal. 16:46 Everyone's behind him listening to the last second of the call, and you, you got a deal board up, the public, you know, marks on the board. 16:53 Like, there's something to that that's very, very hard, if not impossible, to replicate in a remote environment. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know, man. 17:00 I was gonna say it's really just the culture that that company wants to build. Like, do you- Yeah. And there's two different cultures. Do you want to build a remote first culture or not? And that's it. 17:07 Um, something like Deel is, doesn't really... The only reason why it kind of surprises me is because how fast they're growing, how big they are, and stuff like that, and how grind, grind, grind they are. 17:18 Like, it's a grind culture over there, and there's nothing wrong with that. Like, that's how companies grow fast. Yeah. Go look at Wiz. Go look at Gong. Like, those are grind cultures. You're- Yep. 17:28 You have to be in your career phase of life- Yep... to do really well at those companies. You can't be in like a, okay, I want to kind of sit back, spend more time with family phase of life. That's like a... 17:39 A- and you'll make a ton of money. You'll be extremely successful, and your career will, you know, you do it for five years, 10 years, your career will be at the top of the top, and you'll always be- Yep... good. 17:49 But yeah, it just depends on, like, the, the culture you want to build. Um, and a lot of people love that, like, let's have these war room style cultures. Mm-hmm. 17:57 Even if it's not, like, the sales thing is one, but even, like, engineering, get them all in a room and do, like, a hackathon and just work away and figure out- Yeah, do a hackathon or, like, competing sprints. So- Yeah. 18:05 Yeah, yeah. I mean, uh, there's something to be said that, like, me, I actually, uh, I have a CEO coach, and I talked about her a few times on this podcast. She's incredible, and I... 18:14 She's almost like a therapist too at the same time, and she asked me, like, how things are going at Demo, and we, it's up and down, right? 18:21 Like, we have some really good months, some really bad months, and, like, [laughs] it's, uh, it's, like, always the extreme. 18:25 Like, last month was really good, and I think that we, I think we're starting to nail, like, what's working and what's not. But I was just like, "To be honest, I'm, I'm lonely." 18:33 Like, I, I feel lonely because I sit in this office at least eight hours a day. Yeah. And I work-Hard, and like I don't have really anybody to talk to 'cause Demo's like super small. 18:45 It's like me and one other person, basically, and that one other person's a contractor in Ukraine. There's a, there's other co-founders, but kid life, all that stuff. There's just, whatever. And so, like I'm lonely. 18:56 Like I have no one to really like talk to, and I almost wish that I had like a... I told my wife this last night. 19:00 I was like, "I wish I had a team where I could just like see them, work with them, and not every single day, but like just know that we're building something good." Because at the end of the day- Yeah... 19:10 like it starts, it starts, starts to get draining, and starts to like take a toll on me where I'm like, "All right, same day, same grind, all by myself. Let's, uh, let's get after it." And so, I don't know. Yeah. 19:20 I think there's something to be said for, for both co-... and I don't think there's a wrong or a right answer. I do know co-working space and offices are extremely expensive, and it's a huge... 19:31 I mean, it's, you really have to justify it, and so like as a startup, even though I've been seeing a lot of startups forcing an office now, like but as a startup, like you have to be okay with like, hey, we're gonna spend, it's like a whole nother enterprise sales rep- Yeah... 19:45 that you're, that you're paying for. Um, so yeah. What, um, what's that co-working space you were talking about recently that you go to? And so there's a couple, but I think the one that we were talking- Serendipity. Oh. 19:58 I went to one with Darren McKee called Industrious. Industrious is amazing, so if anybody's ever heard of it. They're like, they're like the, what would you call it? High-end hotel kind of service. 20:08 Like you go in there- Okay... and they give you like water and like all the drink, like they're super, super- Like real bougie. Really bougie. But it's really nice. 20:17 Like drinks, chips, food gets brought in, and like it's just a co-working space. You told me about- But the one that I was going to was Serendipity, yeah. Serendipity. 20:24 I looked into, you, you were like, "Dude, you should just hit them up and, and get a free spot." Yeah. "And, you know, use some of your network as a..." 20:30 I went to do that, and the one that I had looked at and, and, and investigated about literally a month before shut down. It just doesn't exist anymore. Like 10 minutes away from my house. 20:40 So there's, there's one 30 minutes away from my house, but I was like, ah, it's- Yeah, it's too far... too much of a trek. 10, 10 minutes is no deal. I've thought about opening my own. 20:47 I live in a very popular area right now. Summerville, South Carolina is the, is the fastest growing- Oh, huge. Yeah... city in the, in the world. I looked at homes there. Yeah, we talked about this. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 20:55 I mean, it's, uh, the, the fastest growing. It's like two years in a row. So if y'all wanna live in an amazing state- Or in the country... that's beautiful, check out Summerville, South Carolina. Yes. 21:01 Summerville's great. And it's still affordable for the most part. Very. It's like- Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's awesome. It's awesome. So I, yeah, I, I, I know the appeal. 21:09 I've thought through, I mean, my dog usually sits in my office to give my family just space. My dog's huge and she's annoying. It's a freaking dog. But today she was just whining, like in the middle of calls. 21:18 And I'm like, "God," like, "just shut up." [laughs] And I'm like, okay, like I can see the value of just leaving my house and working somewhere else 'cause this is ridiculous. Like I can't, I can't focus. 21:26 Um, went and took her on a 10-minute walk and she's fine now. But there's value. Now, you mentioned feeling lonely sometimes. 21:33 Do you ever leave work at the end of the day or sign off, whatever, and just feel like depressed? Lately. Last couple weeks, actually. And I've never had... 21:43 Dude, I think we talked about like some of the deep things I've been through, but I've never had like that depressed feeling. Yeah. And I was like, "Is this what it feels like?" 21:50 'Cause it's just like I'm sitting in this little what you'd call like a cubicle office. Um, and yeah, dude, I, I log off, I'm like, dang, like that was kind of a- Like this is my life. Yeah. 22:01 Like this is my life, and I don't have anybody to talk to about it 'cause it's just me. Like I need to, I need to grow it more so I can hire people. That'd be fun. But, um, yeah. Sometimes. Sometimes. Same. 22:13 I've, I've, I mean, even late last week I looked at Courtney maybe during dinner or after the kids were in bed, and I was just like, "I think I'm depressed." And, 22:25 you know, I've, I've had seasons of depression in my life. You know, I don't necessarily consider myself like a depressed person, as usually like that, if it's seasons, it's moments in time or periods of time. 22:37 But I'm like, dang, like, how, how many years am I supposed to grind- Yeah... before like I can go the opposite direction? And I struggle with that sometimes. I'm like- Yeah... I am, I'm grinding my life away. 22:54 [laughs] And it has been that way for- Yeah, I know you, I know you love Beehive... years. And I know that you're- I do... so passionate about it. I do. But I also know that you are, you're creative. Like you, 23:04 there's something bigger out there for you. You just ha- you're not there yet, and that's not a bad thing. Like that's why we're working. 23:09 But like there's something bigger out there for you, and I know you're, you're doing everything right every day. Yeah. All the constant posts, all like the work on this, some newsletters, things like that. 23:18 Like you're doing the things to, I think, possibly to get you where you like dream of. I don't know. I wouldn't even say want. I don't know. Who knows? I don't know. But there's something bigger out there for you. 23:27 Someone asked me this week, like what do you, what do you want? And I'm like, I could answer that 10 different ways. You know? Taco Bell? I want, I wanna- Taco Bell burrito. [laughs] Beefy five layer. 23:38 I want, I wanna see, I wanna see Beehive make it. Oh, dude. And I have- You would be just them. [laughs]... just shy of sold my soul to ensure that. And I can, I can rest easy at night. 23:49 I can put my head on the pillow and know in confidence that I have done everything possible to help them get to where they are. There's not a single thing I would do differently over the last three years. But 24:01 I want to see them. I've committed to that. Yeah. That's what I want. Yeah. Yeah. And I think how to, how to get there is the, is the, the medium that is so back and forth, you know? I'm, 24:14 I'm, I would say mildly successful in several different areas of my life. I make a few thousand dollars a month with content. I make a few thousand dollars a month with newsletters. 24:26 I make a few thousand dollars a month with Two Dads in Tech. I obviously make a sustainable and, and quite substantial living from Beehive. Yeah. I'm, I'm good. 24:37 Like I, I, I feel very well off, and I feel very blessed to have the diversity of income and, and even just skills. Like I, I like to do things.I get very bored doing one thing over and over and over again. Same. 24:52 I actually had a job at a law firm once where my, basically my entire job was just working in an Excel spreadsheet sorting data. I wanted to just off myself. Like, it was the worst thing ever. I, I hated it so much. 25:03 I was so happy when I left. But I don't know, man. So why you feeling- I think-... depressy lately then? Just- Well, I'm depressed because- You got a good stance, like... that's, that's the thing. That's what... 25:15 [laughs] I don't know. You, you- I don't know... you've done all this and you don't feel like you've, maybe you... Like for me- I'm like, is this what life is all about? I think that's where it comes. 25:26 Like, my most joyful, content times in life have been when I'm deeply involved in my communities and- And disconnected from- And-... probably tech and all that... 25:37 just, yeah, crushing a screen and, and, and putting it away. And right now I can't. And if I do, something is failing. Something is not getting done. 25:45 And I think I talked about this in the last episode, but I was reading a comment on a reel for Two Dads and Tech that said, and the, the irony made me so angry, but it said, "If your kids are awake and in the same room as you, put your, put your phone down." 26:00 And I read that comment on the reel while my kids were right- Mm-hmm... in front of me. Yep. And it just made me so angry, and I'm like, is th- am I, am I a bad dad? 26:11 Like, I think that's where some of the depression comes in. It's like- Yeah... am I a bad husband? Am I just- Yeah... am I just a bad person? 26:16 Like, so focused and, and obsessed with success and money that I'm just, like, missing the mark completely? Like, none of this matters. When I'm, when I'm 85, 95, 100 years old and I'm dying, who cares? 26:30 Like, who cares- Yeah... about all this? Yeah. Yeah, but it's tough to, it's, it's tough to think that way because you, you got a family to support. You have things that you want to accomplish. 26:38 You have things that you want to do. And so, like, yeah, who cares at the end of the day? But at the... I, like, I, I love that outlook. 26:45 And there's that guy, Jack Frimston, on LinkedIn, and every single post at the very end, he says, "Remember, you will die." And yeah, for sure, right? 26:54 Like, even when you're not 85, 90, 100, like, something can happen today, something can happen tomorrow, and I never wish that really upon anybody, right? That'd be good, yeah. 27:01 So, but at the end of the day, it's like y- we, a- I don't know, like, we have to, so it's like it... It's a great mindset if you can put that mindset, I would say, on the back burner, not say, like, screw everything. 27:14 I don't know. It, it's, it's tough because yeah, who cares? But you do need to kind of care to get what you want, you know? It's a, it's an unfortunate world. And kind of back to that, that comment on TikTok. 27:26 Did you see that comment that we had on YouTube? I think it was, it was 11 hours ago. I'm looking at it right now. I don't think so. I'm gonna read it. Yeah, read it. 27:33 "I went out for lunch with a friend that I hadn't seen in a while, and as we sat down, I took my phone out, I turned it off, and dropped it in my purse. 27:40 She looked at me with, with, with tears in her eyes and said, 'Thank you.' I realized I had just shown her how much she meant to me, and it was sad that she was amazed that I liked her more than my phone." Dude, crazy. 27:53 I mean, like that's how- I feel like I could get teared up just even thinking about that long enough. That's... That's just how, that's the world we live in. Like, we- Yeah... 28:01 I think we go to dinner, we go to lunch, we hang out with friends expecting that, like, people will just be on their phones and- Yeah... not be involved. It's- Yeah... 28:08 when we talked about this at the end of la- last episode, you preached some gospel, my man. But you, you went off, and it, it was, it was amazing. I had to end the episode there. 28:18 But so I don't wanna, like, beat a dead horse on this constant consumption of smartphone use, but it, it's bad. It's bad. It is. 28:27 There's a study that OSU did, the OSU nursing department, in about a year ago, May of last year. It says pressure to be perfect is causing burnout for parents and mental health concerns for their children. 28:42 And the data, the, the, the abstract, it says, "New data finds stress, anxiety, and depression spike for those feeling the weight of a culture of achievement." And that is just hitting me right in the spot. Yeah. 28:56 Because I think I am feeling some of that pressure. Yeah. And honestly, I look up to my wife so much. She is a amazing mom, so good at what she does. Yeah. 29:10 I wouldn't be even half of the man I am without her or the father I am. Yeah. So I think sometimes I'm like, man, how do I even measure up to her? And that's obviously between me and her. 29:20 Like, I just gotta figure that out. It's not about competing, but she's just an amazing mom. So sometimes I'm like, gosh, I couldn't possibly be that good of a dad. 29:28 But how are we supposed to cope with societal expectations of what a good parent looks like, and what does being a good parent actually mean? Yeah, I mean, being a good parent is so subjective. I think 29:44 there's so many different ways that people can be a good parent, and what you might think a good parent is could be different to the, you know, to the next parent that lives right next door to you. 29:52 And so there's this constant belief that we aren't doing enough or our life isn't as good as, good enough or whatever, because in my opinion of social media, right? 30:03 You see these influencer families where it's like they have it so put together. They make so much money. All the kids are so happy, and we all know that's BS, right? Mm-hmm. 30:12 Like they're, sure, they might be happy, but you know that there's crap that goes on behind the scenes, stuff like that- Yep... that, and it comes out all the time, but there's always crap that goes on behind the scenes. 30:20 Yep. What I think being a good parent is for me is being present when I need to be and raising a child that is a good human being. Yeah. Like, that's what I wanna do is like, obviously, like, 30:40 I don't know, like just teaching, teaching the right thing. It's like to me, being a good parent is making sure that they become good humans- Yeah, yeah... good kids, good adults, whatever it is. 30:47 So that's, that's my goal is, like, whatever I do, I'm hoping, I'm hoping for that, and I'm always likeI mean, I don't know. 30:53 I love, [laughs] like every morning when I, I wake up Liam, and every morning when I wake him up, I, I pick him up and I throw him in like the sky like four or five times and catch him. 31:01 He thinks it's like the funnest thing in the world. Love that. It's like, I don't know, there's just like little moments like that that you... I think it's like being a good parent is just being present. 31:08 I think honestly in today's world, being a good parent means being present. That's- Being there. Yeah. It does. Which is, it's not a big ask, but it's a hard task for some reason. 31:18 It's- It's so hard to like be present 24/7... it's the consistency of self-denial. Yeah. Because any parent listening to this knows being present once is easy, being present five times is easy. 31:30 Being present every single day for 18 years and beyond- Dude, so hard... that is, I can't think of a harder thing in life. Yeah. And I think- It's, it's sad. It is sad. 31:42 And I always fall back on, do my children know how much I love them? And the answer emphatically is yes, they do. Yeah. I agree. And they do, they do know I love them. 31:53 But I think there are things that can stain that relationship faster and more simply than most parents, including myself, realize. 32:04 And it's just like in the last episode where we picked up a, you know, we, we, where we kind of did an homage to this one story we heard where someone had this like PTSD from their mom answering a Nokia ringtone- Yep... 32:17 when they, like 30 years ago. We're talking like when cell phones just came out, and now like that ringtone makes her nauseous. 32:24 And like I don't know anything about this family or that person, but that mom probably had no idea when she was taking those calls what it was doing to her child, or else she probably wouldn't have kept doing it. 32:34 Maybe she knew. Maybe she's just a bad mom. Yeah. But I don't- Yeah... I don't get the feeling. I don't. Like most people are like ill-intented. Yeah. I don't think it's- I think just- Yeah... 32:42 yeah, it's like innocent oversight. So I don't know, man. Yeah. Yeah. I think these are all thoughts I've been feeling a lot. So it's like, why are you depressed? Is, or whatever you ask. 32:52 I think it's just like everything. [laughs] Like everything compounding at once. 32:55 Every, every, every year or two I have these like moments of my life where I'm like, "Oh my goodness, the weight of the world is on my shoulders." Yeah. And everyone's- Yeah... 33:02 relying on me, and I think that's just a lot to handle as a dad, especially 'cause like where do you start? Like my wife needs me, my kids need me. 33:10 Obviously my job needs me, which is just so we're all on the same page, everything work-related comes s- second to my family. I'm quite vocal about that. But sometimes that's not as easy as it sounds. Yeah. Yeah. 33:24 You know? Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's hard, and it's sad, and it's unfortunate. Yeah. So we're gonna, we're gonna- Yeah... change gears a little bit. Let's shift. Let's shift. 33:33 Do you think, what do you think about second baby showers, so a baby shower for the second kid? I call those, don't they, don't they call those- Sprinkles?... sprinkles? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So we'll call it- It's-... 33:42 a sprinkle. Yeah. Like I think those are, those are okay. I know people who have done them, and I know people who haven't. 33:49 And I think it has everything to do with, I, I guess in my experience and in my understanding, how much that couple needs, like genuinely. 34:00 'Cause one example, if someone has a baby boy and then five years later has a baby girl, five years has passed since they were parents of a newborn, and it's a different gender, so they have nothing, even if they've saved things, that will really work. 34:16 I mean, newborn stuff is usually fairly divided, but like once they're six months to a year old, like everything's gonna be for the opposite sex. So I think it's okay. Um, you know- Yeah... 34:25 they might have gotten rid of the stroller. Um- Yeah. Yeah... or maybe they're going from one baby to having twins, now they have three, and they need a double stroller. Like it's, there's so many- Yeah... 34:32 reasons why I think it's okay. So I'm fine with it. I'm fine with it. Yeah. What, what do you think? Yeah. We had one. We had a sprinkle. Yeah. So. Yeah. I think- I'm fi- I didn't do it anything for it, obviously. 34:40 I don't know if we did, to be honest. Shout out to her. I can't remember. I feel like we did. I don't know. Uh- I would've got invited... I should probably know the answer to this. I think you did. [laughs] I know. 34:46 It's not, honestly, I don't think the dad usually plans much when it comes to sprinkles- I am so-... and showers [laughs]... uninvolved with that type of stuff. 34:54 Um, another question that I have for you is do you ever judge how people are parenting their kids- Yes... when they're out in public? 35:02 [laughs] I think anyone that says no- I don't care how people parent, but like I, I judge. Yeah. I think, I think anyone that says no to that is either- A liar... 35:09 totally unaware of who they are as a person, or they're so self-righteous that they- Yeah... that they see no wrong [laughs] in themselves. Yeah. I think everyone judges. Yeah. Everyone. 35:18 The other day, the other day at Costco, this guy was getting out of the car, and he was like, "Get out of the car," 'cause his like daughter was screaming. He's like, "Come on, stop crying." Dude. 35:25 I was like- Like, daughter-... ooh, that's rough to see... you just ruined your kid's life. Yeah, like they're- I was like, that is-... they're gonna remember that moment until they're in therapy as an adult. 35:31 Like that's just- Yeah. I was like- Yeah... yeah, in front of everyone, but, um, yeah. What do you think about gentle parenting? Mm. This is a hot topic. Ooh. And it, it could even be considered somewhat controversial. 35:41 Oh, it is absolutely controversial, especially for 30-somethings with kids who are under five years old. Yeah. Uh, we are polarizing two people, two types of people right now. Yeah. Let's talk about it. Gentle parenting. 35:55 Let's talk about it. First let's, let's bring up what I believe is the definition, where it's like- You say the definition- Everything-... and I'll see what ChatGPT says the definition is. Yeah. 36:02 I won't say it as technical as ChatGPT, but everything your kid does, whether it's right or wrong, is okay, and it's the right thing, but maybe just the w- wrong way to present it. And so you have to phrase it in a way, 36:15 like if they hit, "Hey, you know, that person has really big feelings, and we don't wanna hurt their feelings," like things like that. 36:21 Like gentle parenting is just like everything is okay to do, but you have to let them know it's not the right thing to do kind of thing. But what is, what is the exact definition? Let's see. 36:31 Gentle parenting is a discipline approach that focuses on empathy, respect, and boundaries without yelling, punishment, or rewards. 36:41 It aims to model positive behavior and build strong emotional connections through calm, consistent guidance. Yeah. Okay. That is after me asking it to be concise because it gave me like 500 word- Yeah. Yeah... 36:53 writeup when I first asked. [laughs] But it, it, it emphasizes respect, empathy, and positive discipline, which I think is where all of these philosophies- Yeah... come from with gentle parenting. 37:03 Would you say gentle parenting, before I answer this question, would you say gentle parenting and-Kids being too soft these days would fall into the same bucket. 37:17 Because a lot of people talk about how we're born into, like, this soft little, sweet little world, and there's no discipline anymore and stuff like that. 37:26 So would you say that it, it falls into the same realm or spectrum? 37:30 I mean, look, I think our parents' generation and their parents' generation, so I'm talking the current 60-year-olds and the people that are mostly dead who are or would be 120 years old. 37:46 Your parents- or your kid's out of line, you spank them, and usually it's with something like a yardstick or a belt. Or a ruler, a paddle. Or a- Yeah. Yeah. 37:56 Like, just like nowadays someone might call it, yeah, you just get a whipping. You get beat. Like, uh, it's like however you describe these things that were very commonplace 60 to 100 years ago. 38:08 I think we swung so opposite to that because of the damage it caused generations of people, that people are afraid to do any type of discipline. And not... I'm not talking like physical discipline. 38:20 I'm talking, like, addressing a behavior as unacceptable- Yeah... and disciplining them, whether it's a time out, a scolding. Punishing them. And I'm not, I'm not saying yelling- Yeah. Yes, punishing them. I think... 38:34 I don't know. I- I'm not... H- honestly, I just am not an expert enough to know if- Yeah... the reason why kids are, quote, "soft," I don't even really know. 38:42 It's just such a can of worms, but like I think there's probably related, you know- Yeah... there's a string of relation, you know? Yeah. Yeah. But, like, 38:50 I think when you look at the commonalities of what I would see in a generation of, you know, 55 to 70-year-olds now, they grew up very hard, like, like tough, and it's because they were taught. Hard, yeah. Yeah. 39:04 Like, like, don't show emotion. You know? Yeah. Complete anything at all cost, even if it's damaging yourself or your relationships. Yeah. Like, never start... Never take a risk. I don't know. It's like- Mm-hmm. Yeah... 39:16 it's a very calculated generation that I think there's just, there's just a lot of cons, too, as well. There's pros, like work ethic. You know, it's funny. I remember when I first got a job. 39:26 Well, not my first job, but early on in my career. I think I was 25, and I was a millennial. 39:31 And back when I was 25, and I'm still a millennial, but back when I was 25 and a millennial, there was like a whole perception in the workplace around millennials. Oh, yeah. Now that perception is Gen Z- Yep... 39:41 uh, because we've all obviously gotten older. But i- there's like songs about it and how the work ethic of millennials was just, like, terrible, and- Wow... 39:49 I was just, I was just bucketed into this class of millennials, like, as like a joke. And I'm like, "Look, I work harder than 90% of the people at this company," so like don't bucket me into that. Yeah. 39:59 But I think the Boomers and the, even the Gen Yers, the, you know, people who are in their f- late 40s and into 60s now, uh, they look at these younger people as like, "Oh, you're all, you're all soft." Yeah. 40:12 Not just our kids, but, like, they think all of us- Yeah, yeah... under 40 are soft. Yeah. I don't know. What do you think? And how does this have to do with gentle parenting? Yeah, I know. 40:20 We're, we're on a bit of a tangent here, but it's all related. Yeah, it is all related because I, I think that, like... I, I always wanted to ask you this question. Like, do you think kids are too soft these days? 40:31 But I never knew, like, which way it would sway the audience, and so I'm glad we're talking about it now. Yeah. So gentle parenting, I think theoretically it's, it's a good idea. Um, I don't think that it's the right... 40:41 Uh, there's no right or wrong way, but I don't- Yeah... for us, like, in my opinion, and y- y'all can take this how you will. But like you said, like, I think it's okay to do some form of punishment. 40:51 Now, again, that does not mean, like, just go in and beat your child for crying or something. Like, that's awful, no. But if they show and do some sort of behavior that is a problem, like hitting. 41:03 Hitting is not a thing that you do. You don't hit, like, your mom in the face- Right... or your baby brother in the face. Like, I don't think that's... L- you know, one time, yeah, address it in a gentle way. 41:12 "Hey," you know, like, "he's a baby. You don't really do that." Yeah. "You don't wanna hit him in the face." But, like, if it's a constant, like, malicious thing, like, go to time out or whatever. 41:20 In my opinion, I was raised in a way where it's like the things that I loved the most was what was taken away from me as a punishment. So- Yeah... I, I loved gaming. They took away my Xbox. Like that just like- Yeah... 41:31 that, I would never get so mad in my life. I would be like, "Are you kidding me? I can't game now." And so I don't know. Taking things away that they like, like, that's not a- Yeah... severe punishment. 41:41 It's just, like, letting them know- And I think-... you can't do that. Well, and the punishment should be equal in stature to- Yeah, what they did... the disobedience or whatever it is. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 41:52 I think it's not even always malice. I think sometimes... Like, what do you do if someone, if a kid puts themself in danger? Yeah. Yeah. Repeatedly walks in front of traffic. Yeah, you can't- That's unacceptable. Yeah. 42:06 Yeah. You can't gentle parent that forever. 42:08 The first couple times you can maybe explain, but if your three-year-old incessantly walks into the middle of the street where there's traffic, you have to do something that stops them from continuing that. Yeah. 42:22 And I don't have any suggestions because I don't know you as parents, and I don't know who your kids are. But 42:27 in my opinion, it's better that your child survives than continues to do that with the gentle, empathetic- Yeah, I don't-... gentle parenting that could be... 42:37 I'm like, I think there's a time and place for gentle parenting. Yeah, of course. I want my kids to know I love them, and for that to trump the discipline in the moment. Yes. Yeah. 42:45 But shoot, I also care more about my child surviving. Yeah. That if they put themselves in danger repeatedly, like, I will not be gentle. I will... I, I've done it before. They... 42:56 M- my kid has run away from me in a parking lot, like a busy parking lot. Mm. Oh, yeah. Think of like Lowe's, Home Depot on a Saturday. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And laughs and [laughs] you know, is like, "It's a game." 43:05 I am like, "If you don't get back- It's not a game [laughs]... in, in the next three seconds, by the time I say three, there is going to be consequences." Yeah. And I'm not being gentle. I'm like, "Get in the car now. 43:15 Don't do that again." Yep. Yeah. That is what's required of a three-year-old. Yeah. They are not logical. They do not have reasoning skills. Their brain has barely developed. Their language has not developed all the way. 43:27 They don't know that it's not a game.They're just having a good old time going and running around in a parking lot. Yeah. Unacceptable. 43:33 And so I think parents, it's the responsibility of the parent to make sure that that does not continue. So question, because to the, 43:40 like, diehard and strict gentle parent-ers, there's the counterargument that's like, "Yeah, Daniel, they don't understand that, so why would you punish them?" You know? 43:48 So it's like, if they don't understand it's not a game, if they don't understand it's, you can't play the r- like, whatever. If their minds cannot comprehend that- Yeah... why punish them? 43:54 What I would say to that person is if someone doesn't understand that fire burns and they put their hand into the fire because they don't understand it'll burn, their hand is still going to be burned. Yeah. 44:03 And so it is our job as parents to see past the I don't understand or they don't understand or they're not old enough to get it, and create guardrails in their lives such- Yeah... 44:14 that the things they can't possibly understand are prevented before it matters and puts their lives in danger. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I don't care that my three-year-old doesn't get it. 44:22 I'm still gonna prevent him from jumping off a cliff, because what happens when gravity and cliffs collide is death. Yeah, see- It doesn't matter that he understands that or not. 44:29 I think it's why our parents are so used to, and, you know, 60 years ago saying, "Because I told you so." Because they got so tired of explaining things that a two, three, five-year-old just can't possibly get. Yeah. 44:42 Because I said so- Yeah... is just easier. Like, there are things that I understand as the parent here that you can't comprehend, and because I said so is the reason. Because later in life you will- Yep... 44:52 finally get it. I think there's a, there's a responsibility parents have, regardless of if they're a gentle parent or not, to prevent their children from putting themselves in harm's way. Yeah. 45:02 And I think we, we both agree, and we look at this the same way, where there's a time and place. And, you know, one time... Again, it, it all depends. You're not gonna 45:10 go, a- and we're just gonna use this as a, as a, an example, but you're not gonna go spank your child for saying the word no to you for the first time ever. You know? Like, that's, that makes zero sense. 45:20 But yeah, there's a, there's a time and place where gentle parenting works, and it could be the first time. It could be a very small thing that they're doing. 45:26 Like, "Hey, look, like, we don't do that just because X, Y, and Z." You got it. 45:30 But like you said, if it's survival, if it's maybe harming others, like, it- you can't gentle parent all the time, especially if they're not understanding. It's understanding it. But- Yeah. 45:39 My, my three-year-old picked up a little guitar, like a, like a th- a tiny toy three-year-old guitar, and smacked my one-year-old across the face. Mm. No malice. That's not a gentle parent move. 45:51 [laughs] Didn't know what he was doing. But my three, my one-year-old had a, a gash in his head and was bleeding, just shy of, like, I need to rush him to the ER. Like, it was bad. He was okay. He is okay. 46:02 This happened months ago. And again, my three-year-old didn't do it out of anger, out of ma- it just- He's a three-year-old. Yeah... it just happened. It might've even done it on accident. 46:09 Like, I, I didn't see it happen. I just saw what happened right after. So, like, I think... But I'm like, "Everett." It was actually a gentle parenting moment. Okay. But stern. I said, "Everett, that- You do not. 46:21 [laughs] Yeah, you cannot. That can never happen again. And if that does happen again, we're gonna have to have a conversation and, and there's gonna be some discipline." Yeah. 46:29 And I, I'm like, "I, I can't risk your lack of understanding in this moment from that occurring ever again." Yeah. I mean, he coulda had to had stitches. I mean, it was very bad. 46:42 And our, our youngest was in, in ballistic tears for maybe 20 minutes. I mean, it was really, really a bad thing. And he had this huge bump, and it was purple for, like, two weeks. I mean, it was just horrible. Yeah. 46:54 So I'm like, I don't know. I, I think- It's one of those moments. Yeah... it's just, you just gotta... And parents aren't perfect. It comes back to earlier question. Yeah. It's like, what is perfect, good parenting? 47:02 Like, I don't know. Yeah. I don't know that- Parents are not perfect... there is a right way. I think there is a constant spectrum of- Yeah. Yeah... limitless ways to respond to the situation you're in with your kids. 47:13 And it's our job as, as dads and parents listening that you just gotta pick whatever one you think is best in the moment. 47:19 And you're gonna make mistakes, and, uh, unfortunately, you're gonna cause all types of schemas and, and, you know, problems with your kid, and they're gonna have to see a therapist about it when they're older. 47:28 But, like, do your best. Make sure your kid- Yeah... knows you love them. Yep. I think if everything's viewed through those two lenses, what else are you supposed to do? Yeah. Yeah. And don't, don't... 47:39 If you are a parent listening to this, don't think that you need to be perfect, 'cause you will never- You don't... ever, ever- You're never gonna be... be perfect. 47:45 And, like, you will lose sleep, you will get depressed, you'll get anxious trying to make every little thing in their life and your life perfect, and that is not okay. That is not healthy. 47:56 But to kind of sway away from this gentle parenting, but kind of in the same realm, part- I'd say participation trophies, in, in air quotes. 'Cause that was like- Ooh. Ooh... 48:03 a big thing maybe five to 10 years ago- Come on, participation... where, like, everybody gets to win. There's no winner. We're all equal, things like that. 48:11 What are your thoughts on, like, that, that belief where, you know, every- you should get a participation trophy for trying versus, like, just a trophy for being the winner? Are you saying literal trophies? 48:22 Like- I, I'm kind of talking-... in soccer leagues and junk? Yeah. Yeah. I'm kind of talking, like, literal, like, competitive things. Yeah, yeah. I'm not talking, like, everybody being equal and not equal. 48:31 I think it depends on the age group. I think it depends on the age group, and it probably depends on the sport. So you think, like, three, you should all get... 48:36 Like, if you're playing soccer at three, you think everyone should get one? I think s- I mean, that's maybe older... maybe, maybe like a little ribbon. 48:41 Like, I think the desire to get something and someone else getting it but you not getting it I think does so much more damage than the point you're trying to make as a three, four, five-year-old. Yeah. 48:52 Like, I, I'm like, whenever I go on a trip, I get something for my kids. I went to New York. I got a little tiny, like, New York taxi and a little- Yeah... fire truck. And I, I struggle with this every time. 49:03 I'm like, "Should I just get two of exactly the same thing?" 'Cause no matter what I do, they're gonna want each other's thing. Yep. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And I think that's just, like, how it is with kids. Yeah, it is. 49:13 So I think participation trophies are fine. I think eventually, I don't know what the age is, like, like, collegiate athletes should not get- [laughs]... participation awards. Like, there should be a winner. 49:24 Yeah, we won the- And there is. There's- We, we won the championship as well. I know. Good job. [laughs] Yeah, like, everyone's a Heisman w- You know, it's like, no, there's a Heisman. No, you compete. Yeah. Yeah. 49:32 And there's one winner. Yeah. And that's just how it is.But it has to- I'm fine with the philosophy of it, to be honest, for younger kids. Yeah, for younger, definitely. 49:41 Because there is that thing where it's, I don't think it's fair. It's like you're stripped of it and you're three years old. 49:45 Like, um, but I do wonder what that age is where it's like, "Hey, if they don't get it, it will... something will trigger in their brain" where it's like, "I need to work harder for that," if they want to, right? 49:54 So I don't know what that age is. Six, seven, eight? I don't know. No idea. I think it depends. Like, like I just talked to a friend who's taking their five-year-old, six-year-old to karate. Mm-hmm. 50:04 And it's like a, a, he just started, and it's like a pretty like militaristic karate, so it's like you're learning karate but you're also learning like discipline and all this stuff. 50:13 And so, uh, it was funny 'cause they, they told me how it went the first day and it was like more or less like a disaster, is how they described it. 50:21 'Cause this six-year-old had never really been deeply challenged on just like being tough. Like y- you imagine like a group of six-year-olds and basically like a, an army, you know, officer just yelling at them. 50:34 You know, "10 pushups, get on the ground." It was like- [laughs]... and he was just like in tears like, like, like scared in, in some ways. And I'm like, what a weird... Whatever. 50:42 Like I, I s- I guess I could, I could see the... But I'm like, you probably don't give participation trophies to everyone in there if you're trying to teach them a lesson beyond- Yeah... showing up. Yeah. 50:52 You, you probably give a trophy, if any at all. So I don't know. I think like boxing, a lot of those types of sports, like not everyone should get a participation award. Soccer and football and basketball, maybe. Maybe. 51:01 Yeah. Kind of in that, [sighs] in that same vein, there's like these adult male boot camp be a harder dad, a better dad, a better husband. Really? Like have you not seen these where- Mm... oh, gosh, what's his name? 51:17 He's super, he's super wealthy, and he hosts one of these, and it's like 20 dads in one group, and they'll go out, they'll be blindfolded, they have to go out and like, and trek the ocean and do pushups in the water. 51:29 And then supposedly- No idea what you're talking about... like what you're doing is you learn like how to be a better husband, better dad, and like you just get, you toughen up as a dad. 51:37 I was gonna say if you knew what they were, what are your thoughts on it, but you should look at it. Like it is, it's like borderline... 51:42 It's, it's, it's literally just hazing, like fraternity hazing but for adults, like adult dads. That's so weird. I don't know. I think if you're a dad and you are- Be a dad. [laughs] Yeah. 51:51 Like, like you miss some parts of your... May- may- I mean, maybe it is for people. Like, there's plenty of people who miss key moments in their lives- Yeah... and maybe didn't get the- And people need help, right?... 51:58 the mentorship they need. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. That is really interesting. Maybe they're the dad-less dads. If it's opt- I don't know. Yeah. If it's opt-in, why not? 52:04 Like if you're signing yourself up for this 'cause it's something you feel like you're missing, like go for it. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. I agree. I, yeah. I think, yeah. Not for me, but- Yeah. 52:12 Not, not necessarily for me either. Um. Yeah. But I can maybe see value- Maybe we should do it together and document it all. [laughs] Dude, just like a, a vlog? Could you imagine? Vlog, yeah. That'd be so funny. 52:20 Vlogging the whole thing for Two Dads and Tech. We'd both just give up after like six hours. It's like, "Nah, I can't take it anymore." I agree. Yeah. No, I wouldn't. I'd cry every day. I'd cry. So would I. 52:29 I'd cry myself out. So would I. Uh, this was a good episode. Yeah. This was a good episode. Yeah, it's not so bad. I think we, we had some- We've been ripping lately. Yeah. We, we just had some good deep conversation. 52:37 It was funny, my wife texted me. She said... What'd she say? She said, "Have a good podcast. Be funny." I said, "Actually, this one's deep, not funny. We never know till we hit record." And, uh, it's true. 52:48 [laughs] Like last episode, we were cracking up at the beginning. Oh, in the beginning- I mean-... I teared up... lost it. Lost it. Yeah. And that's just how it is sometimes. And then other times- Yeah... 52:57 we're, you know, we're, we're riffing on being depressed and- Just deepest, deepest. Yeah... and hating our lives and, you know. No, just kidding. Uh, but it was good. 53:04 You should've responded to- We get up to- You should've responded to Gordon. You say, "Nah, I'm depressed." [laughs] Oh. We're not making light of depression, everyone. Uh, yeah, I know. Although, uh, you do you, pal. 53:14 Oh, that's a bad thing to say. Should we edit that out? No. No, no, no. We'll just give, you know. All right, man. Where, where do they find us? 2dadsintech.com. Check out our new website. 53:22 If you haven't already, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That helps us out a lot. We also have some fathers', dads', grandpas' swag at shop.2dadsintech.com, which is awesome. We have a lot of swag there actually. 53:34 Go check it out. And yeah, comment on our videos. Go follow us at Two Dads and Tech on all platforms. We love to hear the feedback, the comments. A lot of times we'll bring those comments up in our podcast because 53:45 we like to respond to them. So please keep doing what you're doing. We do this for you. Yeah. What we should do moving forward, if you comment on... Spotify has comments. I didn't know that. 53:54 But if you comment on Spotify- I didn't know either... or YouTube or something like that, we'll address every single one moving forward until we don't have the bandwidth to address them anymore. So- Yeah... comment. 54:01 Let us know we want, what you want us to answer or talk about, et cetera. Please do. But- Awesome... uh, we'll see you next week. Thanks everyone. See you next week. Bye-bye.
